Posts by Shining One

50

C.S. Lewis statement....

by Shining One in

lewis says jesus' claim to be equal with deity leaves us only one other choice: .

a man who was merely a man and said the sort of things jesus said would not be a great moral teacher.

he would either be a lunatic on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg or else he would be the devil of hell.

I noticed that everyone here conveniently skipped my question....
BTW, why does everyone here accept the existence of these other figures but many do not accept the existence of Christ Jesus?

http://www.cephasministry.com/jesus_zoraster_buddha_socrates_muhammad.html

Some of you guys are really showing your insecurities now. You seem to be at a 'fever pitch' when people disagree with your beliefs. You ask for evidence and the opinion of scholars yet that is not suitable either. I see that often in those associated in some way with cults, myself included! You have exchanged one dogmatic belief for another. You are still seeing things in black/white and ignoring the reality that most things in this world are somewhere in between. There are two (not just two but many) sides to the coins of belief.
Rex

50

C.S. Lewis statement....

by Shining One in

lewis says jesus' claim to be equal with deity leaves us only one other choice: .

a man who was merely a man and said the sort of things jesus said would not be a great moral teacher.

he would either be a lunatic on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg or else he would be the devil of hell.

Shining One

C.S. Lewis says Jesus' claim to be equal with deity leaves us only one other choice:
A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.
**from Mere Christianity

and a link to a complete article on the major historical religious figures.....

BTW, why does everyone here accept the existence of these other figures but many do not accept the existence of Christ Jesus?

http://www.cephasministry.com/jesus_zoraster_buddha_socrates_muhammad.html

7

For Dave. my first link:difference between Buddha and Christ

by Shining One in

http://www.dci.dk/da/php/artikel_visning.php?artikel=629 .

hi dave, .

the article begins with this.

Shining One

http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Zoroastrim/zoroastrism.htm

(You no doubt know that it is a form of belief known as Dualism.)

Zoroastrianism

Zorastrianism is an ancient religion. The Founder of Zorastrianism was the Persian Prophet Zorathustra, meaning "He of the golden light". The Greek form "Zoraster" (1200 B.C.) also knows him. Zoraster's people inhabited strips of Central Asia before moving to Persia - now Iran.

Modern scholars do not accept a traditional belief that Zoraster lived in 500 B.C. and that the Greek philosopher Pythogarus studied with him. Zorastrianism is a belief in a struggle between good and evil. He taught that there is one Eternal God "Ahura Mazda" who is Lord of Wisdom. He is wholly wise, just and good. "Angra mainyu" the spirit of evil, wholly wicked and malevolent.

Ahura Mazda called upon a number of lesser good spirits called the to destroy this evil. Yazatas - chief among them were six moral divinities, immortal beings of Great Goodness. There were also Gods from ancient Persian religions such as Mithua. The Yazatas had special functions such as justice, devotion and wholeness. The evil spirit Angara Mainyu was aided by a host of demons. Followers of Zorastrianism believed that good will eventually triumph over evil and that the last day will come.

Zoraster was the first founder of a world religion to prophesy and end of time and of earthly life. Zorastrians believe that the souls of the dead will be reunited with their resurrected bodies on the last day. The dead man and the living will undergo the Last Judgement. The wicked will be destroyed body and soul but the just people will be unharmed.
Observances Zoraster instructed his followers to pray in the prescence of fire. Fire was a symbol of order and justice. An earthly fire can represent fire, by the Sun, or by the Moon. Zorastrians must pray five times every 24 hours - sunrise, noon, sunset, midnight and dawn. They pray standing while untying and tying a sacred cord tied around their waist. There are seven communal festivals.
The most important is No Ruz or Navroz - the Parsi New Year new day observed at the spring of Equinox. People took special care about the purity of fire, water and earth. They disposed of the dead by exposing the corpses in barren places or on stone towers, called Towers of Silence, where they are eaten by vultures. Zorastrians practice a number of rites for regaining lost purity. Prayers are regularly preceded by ritual ablutions. The community is divided into lay people and priests. Boys begin to study the sacred text at the age of seven years. Some priests tend the sacred fire kept burning in the temples. The best-known priest, was Magi.
Zoraster composed seventeen Gatas - sacred songs. "Ahuna Vairyo" is a sacred chant. The writings are in an ancient language called the Old Avestan. Collections of Zorastrian Holy Texts are called Avesta. Translation's with glossaries and commentaries are called the Zend.
Zoraster, after living alone and wandering began to have revelations at the age of 36. Zorastrianism was the State Religion of the Persian Empire 550-330 B.C. Persian Empire included Babylonia, where many Jews lived and Palestine had a great influence on the early beliefs of Judaism. It also influenced some Jewish sects from among which Christianity emerged. It also contributed much to Islam much. After the Muslim conquest of Persia, Islam became the state religion. They finally settled in Gujarat, where they are called Parsis. The few Zorastrians left in Persia suffered persecution. In 1900, many Zorastrians migrated to Iran from India.

Check out the link above. I looked into this one too in my wandering days after leaving the Watchtower...
Rex

7

For Dave. my first link:difference between Buddha and Christ

by Shining One in

http://www.dci.dk/da/php/artikel_visning.php?artikel=629 .

hi dave, .

the article begins with this.

Shining One

Dave,
I don't see any reason to connect Hinduism or Buddhism to Judaism. I also researched Zoroastrianism to some extent and will post a good link that explains it in no small detail. There is no indication that pantheism had many adherents in the middle east, not the same for dualism....
Of course, the Romans took their gods from the Greeks and their culture was prevalent clear into Persia.

First follow up:

Educational Setting

For the first century Jew, religion, law, history, ethics and education were inseparable. Through both written (Torah) and oral (Mishna) law, teaching was passed from generation to generation. Rabbi's (teachers) and synagogues were highly esteemed aspects of society.

* The Roman Empire thrived on syncretism – seeking to have all people (Greek, Syrian, Egyptian, Jew, etc.) maintain their own traditions and philosophies, and yet seeing them all under a general Roman perspective.
* The Jewish education emphasized law, ethics, and history for the purpose of right, moral living. In contrast, the Greek education system called “gymnasium” emphasized science, arts, linguistics and bodily training.
* Most Roman citizens were influenced by the teachings of different philosophical systems; the two major philosophies of the time being Stoicism and Cynicism.
* For Jews, the “Torah”, translated “law” was the source of all learning – religion, history and ethics. The Torah includes the first five books of the modern Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy)
* The “synagogue” translated “house of assembly” was the Jewish place of both worship and education

Johnson, Luke T.The Writings of the New Testament: An Interpretation.Fortress Press, Philadelphia. 1986.
Josephus, Flavius.The Jewish Antiquities, 20.200.
Kingsbury, Jack Dean. Proclamation Commentaries: Matthew. Fortress Press, Philadelphia. 1986.
The Student Bible: New International Version. Notes by Philip Yancy and Tim Staffod. Zondervan Bible Publishing, Grand Rapids, Michigan. 1986.
Ward, Kaari. Jesus and His Times. The Reader’s Digest Association, Inc., Pleasantville, New York.

7

For Dave. my first link:difference between Buddha and Christ

by Shining One in

http://www.dci.dk/da/php/artikel_visning.php?artikel=629 .

hi dave, .

the article begins with this.

Shining One

http://www.dci.dk/da/php/artikel_visning.php?artikel=629
Hi Dave,
The article begins with this. Which came first, Hinduism or Christianity? Hinduism unless you include the fact that sacred scripture dates back onto Moses day. Christ also fulfills prophecy and in such manner as Isaiah 53 and Psalms 22 which describe crucifixtion in detail before it became a form of execution. I also do not respect the date setting og liberal scholars who so often are naturalists, predisposed against the concept of prophecy on purely philosophical grounds. I believe the dating of conservative scholarship, Old and New Testaments!

by Johannes Aagaard
This exposition does not primarily concern itself with Siddhartha and Jesus but specifically with Buddah and Christ. Siddhartha is the name of the figure who later became known as Buddah and who today is the center of Buddhism. Jesus is the name of the figure who later became known as Christ and who today is the center of Christianity. Actually, they were respectively known as the Buddha and the Messiah, that is Buddha and Christ with the definite article, because the two expressions are not names, as are Siddhartha and Jesus, but they indicate the significance of the two figures. Siddhartha became the Awakened, Jesus became the Anointed.
It is, however, true that the Buddha is often translated into the Enlightened "One," but this is a secondary expression which is even somewhat misleading since the state in which the Buddha lives is called Nirvana, and Nirvana describes the state of being burned out, burned out like when a candle light burns out. Burned out or extinct is not really the same as enlightened! It is much more meaningful to translate the Buddha into the Awakened, because the whole point is that the Buddha who , like every other human being lived in the nightmare of life, was lucky enough to wake up from his dream world and to acknowledge the true meaning of life. Jesus became Christ which is the Greek word for Messiah which means the Anointed. This expression was primarily used about the King who, as the Anointed, was appointed to reign and to bring justice to his people. At the anointing, he was entrusted with the power so that he could assume it without reservation.
Siddhartha is a linguistic composition of power and justice, and Jesus means salvation corresponding to the name of Joshua. These common names are the first indication that there is a difference, and yet there is a similarity, too, since salvation first and foremost means that there is a savior who has the power to administer justice! Siddhartha was born to be a king; Jesus was born the son of an artisan, a man of the people, crying for justice.

And yet it was Jesus who was proclaimed king as the Messiah, whereas the king's son was awakened and took up life as a voice who called people out from the nightmare of life.

Siddhartha, who left his palace, became the great seeker who eventually found the reality he sought. Jesus never sought because he was found from the very beginning and was able to nominate himself as the goal for all religious search.
One could go on and on, and one could describe the two historic figures in so many ways, and one could also very well contradict what has been said here since both these figures as historic figures no longer are historic. They died but, again, in very different ways. The Buddha died from eating roast pork gone rotten. He died an old man, about 80 years old, and his life was good and safe, that is to say that his life was good without exaggerations of either luxury or asceticism. Jesus, on the other hand, died the death of a criminal from torture and execution. And it happened in the prime of his life when he was bout 30 years old.
These relatively probable historical facts are not, however, the reason why we today see them as the center of the two most important world religions. Their history of effect is quite different from their history of origin.

I hope this is the first of many links....
Rex

39

Explaining the hateful passages of the Bible

by Rex in

here is a link to an author whose books may help you:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0060762055/ref=ase_agoramedia-20/103-0623759-2877415

bishop shelby spong is of well repute in liberal theological circles.

Shining One

Hi Dave,

A quick, partial answer for now.....

***My Lord tells me that the road to eternal life is a cramped and narrow way. I choose to travel it because I have heard His voice and recognize my shepherd.***
------------
>Yes, I have heard that one before. Another one that was written about a thousand years before Christ supposedly walked the earth was written in the Upanishads (kind of like the Hindu bible). It puts it like this; “The road to enlightenment is narrow and as difficult to walk as. the razor's edge”.
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Do you really think that someone from the middle east borrowed this idea? I find this kind of wise saying to confirm that man originated from a common and small family and perhaps this idea was handed down or, man still retains the wisdom of God in this way as well as in the common thread of ethics and morals present even in diverse cultures.Kind of like the concience the great majority of us are born with.

*** Ah, the similiarities are part of the whole picture. It all goes back to Genesis and that's one of the reasons it is so fascinating. A Savior was prophecied and lo and behold, He did come!
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>The same is said about many so called “saviors” and according to which religion you want to buy into, all of them did come. The majority of them came before Genesis was written or even thought of for that matter.
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Yes! I would only add to that this nugget: Calvary occurred and was fulfilled prophecy, the evidence is there and demands a verdict. Paul's brilliant defense of the gospel against is one of my favorite evidences.

***Monotheism was at the root of ancient pagan beliefs,***
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>I think you might be wrong here. Can you give some proof of that statement? From what I have read and studied, it was the Jewish and Christian faith that produced the concept of monotheism. Please “with some historical proof” show me where my thinking is wrong.
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Have you not read of the God that spawned the lower Gods? This is quite common in the myths of old and El was claimed to have spawned many lower gods. Might those far too human demi gods be the actual worship of the created angels who fell? Egypt itself went to a monotheistic belief system for a short time.

***flood stories abound in far flung cultures, from the middle east, to the native Americans, the Aboriginal people of Australia and the list goes on.***
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>I will agree with you here. Can you show me where the flood story in the bible is the one that originated such stories?
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I don't think that is provable.

***I have indeed studied the liberal, moderate and conservative views of scripture.***
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>That is a good start. But, with anything so strongly suggested as truth, one must go beyond one single version of a truth. With a little research you can find many of the things attributed to Jesus’ teachings and stories also attributed to many god heroes that came centuries before him. Can you explain why?
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I believe it is the same as the reason in the first question.

*** Some are betting their life and eternity on the limited reasoning and logic of man.***
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>Some are not. Man is the only creature on earth that has even pondered the concept of eternity. It must make us look a little silly to the thousand year old trees and rocks. I guess our egos can not accept the fact that a tree will out live us or does not seem to care.
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Could it be that our spirit tells us that we are not meant to die at all?

*** You see the results of mankind living apart from God.***
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>No, I don’t quite see it. Will you explain it to me? According to those claiming to believe in god, god has always, and will always be with us. Is it only those who do not believe in god who are causing the problems? You might want to think a little before you answer this one.
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I cannot answer this without getting into some deep theological concepts. I believe that you would see where I am coming from but that is not my goal here. I can discuss this offline if you choose. Problems have developed both because of believers and non-believers and are an evidence of our fallen nature, our separation from God.

*** You see what I wrote above about sharing with people what the Lord has done for me and others through a personal relationship. I am an evangelist, pure and simple. Let that be clear***
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>Anyone who talks a lot about his or her god is an evangelist. Just turn on CNN and you’ll see how some evangelists are claiming they are going to beat up the other guy’s evangelist. It’s been that way since the beginning of history. Evangelism is nothing more (to me) than a prelude to war and destruction with the excuse of doing it in the name of their god. So, in answer to your above question, I can not see the results of mankind living apart from god, but I can certainly see the results of mankind having to survive life trying to live with those who live with god.
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What if one could follow the lifestyle as described in the New Testament, derived from the man of sorrows Himself? What problem, even in an imperfect world could we not handle? What if eveyone in the world asked this before they reacted: "What would Jesus do?"

*** You surely remember the blind man from the Book of John, chapter nine? Read it and see what the Word says to you. Here was a man born blind for no reason other than to reveal God to others.***
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>Again, read the Upanishads. Same story, different caricatures. If it wasn’t for the ancient so called pagan religions that came thousands of years before Christianity, Christians wouldn’t have so many cool and mystical stories to believe in.
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And Again, did they actually borrow these concepts? Some have tried to prove this and failed. Yet I ask this: if there is a basis for God to begin with, is it any surprise that a race that came from one family group would have the seed of original wisdom in them. Could it be that the stories of old were told and unbelievably, they came true in the poor son of a carpenter from Nazareth in the region of Palestine?

>Here is one you might recognize; it comes from the story of Buddha. It’s about the mother who lost her son in death and asked Buddha to help her. He told her to do something that three hundred years before Jesus was supposed to have said it.
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>“And Kisa Gotami had an only son, and he died. In her grief she carried the dead child to all her neighbors, asking them for medicine, and the people said: "She has lost her senses. The boy is dead. At length Kisa Gotami met a man who replied to her request: "I cannot give thee medicine for thy child, but I know a physician who can." The girl said: "Pray tell me, sir; who is it?" And the man replied: "Go to Sakyamuni, the Buddha."
------------------
>Kisa Gotami repaired to the Buddha and cried: "Lord and Master, give me the medicine that will cure my boy." The Buddha answered: "I want a handful of mustard-seed." And when the girl in her joy promised to procure it, the Buddha added: "The mustard-seed must be taken from a house where no one has lost a child, husband, parent, or friend." Poor Kisa Gotami now went from house to house, and the people pitied her and said: "Here is mustard-seed; take it!" But when she asked Did a son or daughter, a father or mother, die in your family?" They answered her: "Alas the living are few, but the dead are many. Do not remind us of our deepest grief." And there was no house but some beloved one had died in it.
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>Kisa Gotami became weary and hopeless, and sat down at the wayside, watching the lights of the city, as they flickered up and were extinguished again. At last the darkness of the night reigned everywhere. And she considered the fate of men, that their lives flicker up and are extinguished. And she thought to herself: "How selfish am I in my grief! Death is common to all; yet in this valley of desolation there is a path that leads him to immortality who has surrendered all selfishness."
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>Putting away the selfishness of her affection for her child, Kisa Gotami had the dead body buried in the forest. Returning to the Buddha, she took refuge in him and found comfort in the Dharma, which is a balm that will soothe all the pains of our troubled hearts.”
Sound familiar? There are many more just like it and many more god heroes way before Jesus that were said to do many of the miracles and tell many of the same parables as Jesus.
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>Now, can you explain this given your vast studies of the scriptures?
You see, the bible is just one small piece of the whole religion puzzle. Remember, these stories were written about other god heroes way before Jesus. Can you show me proof that I am wrong? If I am wrong Id like to know it.
-----------------

I personally am not able to answer your question, nor prove you wrong (I have the reason above but it is not proof). I will keep working on this. Have you checked out any sources for explnation in Christian apologetics circles?
It is nice to see someone take the time to investigate the spiritual and mystical realm. May I ask a question? Are you a Unitarian Universalist?

Rex

39

Explaining the hateful passages of the Bible

by Rex in

here is a link to an author whose books may help you:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/asin/0060762055/ref=ase_agoramedia-20/103-0623759-2877415

bishop shelby spong is of well repute in liberal theological circles.

Shining One

Hey Dave!

What a challenging and intriguing post. Let me have some time to work on this one. I may answer here or start a new thread addressed to you.
R.

29

The Atheist's Book of Bible Stories - Ch. 24 - The Atheist Manifesto

by RunningMan in

the atheist manifesto

before debating the existence of god, it is necessary to define him.

the god i grew up with was a pretty specific dude.

Shining One

Agnostic is the term, not atheist.....

12

The Atheist's Book of Bible Stories - Ch. 22 - Biblical Apologists Toolkit

by RunningMan in

over the years, i have run into numerous persons who have attempted to defend the bibles literal accuracy.

these opponents have presented explanations that range in quality from truly inspired justifications to pitifully lame excuses.

for example, when one believer was confronted with the fact that the ancient temple was credited with containing enough raw materials for a building more than a thousand times its size, he replied, "well, maybe it had a basement.

Shining One

Hi Tetly,
I bring in valid arguments from any source available. Why reinvent the wheel? Did you and The Great Brain learn all about your beliefs on yout own? Sure you didn't, you progressivly dismantled your JW belief system except for the biggest lie: "if you leave us, you have nowhere to turn". God was effectively ruled out. You then turned to the best and easiest source for belief left: reasoning and logic that starts with the first premise: there is no God; there are no miracles; there is no supernatural; "what I see is all that exists and has ever existed!" You probably learned that from your JW mom reading you from the book of Bearenstein Bears! Duped again......
R.

12

The Atheist's Book of Bible Stories - Ch. 22 - Biblical Apologists Toolkit

by RunningMan in

over the years, i have run into numerous persons who have attempted to defend the bibles literal accuracy.

these opponents have presented explanations that range in quality from truly inspired justifications to pitifully lame excuses.

for example, when one believer was confronted with the fact that the ancient temple was credited with containing enough raw materials for a building more than a thousand times its size, he replied, "well, maybe it had a basement.

Shining One

>So what you are saying is that this loving god of yours has provided his word but I need someone to teach me how to interpret it?

No, I am saying that before you publish a critical desertation on scripture take the time to learn valid textual and interpretive critisism!
R.